Re-spec in a Classless system

[kaos78414]

I was thinking about this the other day. A respec option is absolutely necessary if you want to attract users. No one wants to build a character up to the level cap only to figure out that they don't really like their class, and they're going to have to start over.

My problem is, how do I prevent respec abuse in a classless system? What's stopping someone from just respeccing whenever they need to fill a different role?

Obviously gear should be a factor, considering that you can't go from cloth to plate (I might not use these in my game, just an example) without owning any plate armor.

The other thing is cost, how expensive should it be to respec? I think WoW got it right here, it should be inexpensive at first, but expensive the more you do it. So a function will probably decide how much a respec costs depending on how many times you've respeced before, and what level you are.

The other thing, is that in my game there will be passive skills gained early on that allow you to gain extra points in stats. This works like so: Every character starts off with 10 points in each of 6 stats (I might lower this to 4 in production). As players get skill points, passive abilities may up the amount of points gained per level. For instance, an early Combat tree skill called Natural Strength, would add an extra .1 to strength every level. Essentially this gains them 10 extra points in strength. Now at max level, it makes sense that you wouldn't want to respec for a magic using class, as your stats are already defined for a melee combat class.

Now, my question for you is, is there anything else that can help prevent respec abuse?

[Last Known Hero]

The only game that had a clear Respec system that I have played was City of Heroes.

It did not cost the person a thing to be able to respec, but instead forced the player to join a team of 8 (max amount of players per team) and made them do a task force (series of mission that once you leave, you cant rejoin the team, and no one can be invited). There were 3 respecs for the characters career to level 50, starting at 20, then 30, then 40.

Now obviously a problem that can be inherited with this is that there are only 3. They started giving out free respecs as the game's mechanics changed. If you had a major release for skills or enhancements/perks/whatever then they gave out a respec so that players can once again build their characters to cooperate with one another as the player's flavors changed and more things were released.

**edit: the bolded above also pretty much lets you control when the players can respec, which could make them have to wait. Having only 3 respecs that can be obtained by the player makes them weigh their choices much more effectively.
I loved this system. Loved that it didnt cost anything other than an hour to an hour and a half of time.

They have now done so much expanding that respecs are rare droppable items by enemies. Which also helped the characters that have had the level 50 character a long time, but had no more respecs.

City of heroes is hands down the most customizable game I have ever played or seen, in graphics and gameplay.

[kaos78414]

Agreed. I used to play and I loved the huge amounts of character customization.

I'm not sure that their respec system would work for my game though, as the way characters gain skills and things of that nature are different. It's been awhile, but isn't a respec essentially a class change in CoH?

[Jackolantern]

I am not a fan of cost-based respeccing, particularly if you are trying to prevent abuse. In WoW, I was filthy rich from
Inscribing, and I could respec whenever I wanted to, even if it was just to run a raid for the night, since gold was basically meaningless to me. A cost-based system allows rich, high-level players to respec anytime, even though they are the experienced players who need to respec the least. New players need to respec the most, but they are likely to be barred from it due to not having much money.

I would say a time-based system could work well, where players can respec after certain lengths of time. As they get higher level, they have to wait longer and longer after a respec (but probably never longer than a few days). I think a system that requires players to group up and complete a quest to respec could be problematic for the sole fact that heavy skill-based games can allow players to "wreck" their character. Then they will not add much to a group, and some players may even be too embarrassed to join a group, since they know some players may make fun of their build or their performance. They are likely respeccing due to bad performance, so why make them perform so they can respec?

[Last Known Hero]

In CoH there are several Archetypes (classes) for heroes:
Tank, Controller, Defender, Blaster, Scrapper

Each of these Archetypes have skill sets, we'll take a Tank for example, each Archetype has two Power Sets- Primary and Secondary.
- Tank's Defense Options (Primary): Dark armor, Fire armor, Ice armor, Invulnerability, Stone armor, Willpower, Shield defense.
- Tank's Melee Options (Secondary): Battle Axe, Dark Melee, Dual Blades, Energy melee, fire melee, ice melee, stone melee, super strength, war mace.

At creation, a player chooses a Primary power set, and a secondary power set. You can have dark armor/fire melee, or pretty much any combo of the above. Each powerset has 9 tiers of powers. So a character has 9 primary and 9 secondary to choose from as they level up.

Lets say I took all of the powers I really didn't want, if I choose to respec, I am only change the 9 powers to choose from inside of that powerset, you can never change the full powerset of your character. If you make Stone armor/NRG Melee then you will always be Stone Armor/NRG Melee - BUT I may not always have the same powers when I respec.

[Jackolantern]

It sounds like that would work for CoH, but I don't believe it would work well for a straight skill-based game where the player customizes everything. In those heavy skill-based games, players can make some unbelievable decisions ("Hmmm...I am going to put all of points into tanking skills, and put nothing into health"). Making them group or complete a quest with a broken, ineffective character would be a sure way to make them give up and quit playing.

[Callan S.]

My approach to these things is to usually question the fundimental assumption involve.

So here: Why is it abuse? Abuse of what? Kittens?

Face it, there is no abuse, there's just what doesn't jive with you, or rubs you up the wrong way.

Once you figure that, then you can figure what doesn't jive with you and what does and build rules around that.


Finally you may be conceding to a metagame concern of people being able to respec and it will ALWAYS rub you the wrong way somehow because their desire to respec has nothing to do with the game world or how the game world would functions - they are just shoving in their outside the game concern in, regardless. In which case there is no perfect answer, only the one that rubs you the wrong way the least. Because the meta game is conflicting with the percieved fiction. Like oil and water.

[Last Known Hero]

Here is a link to read up on their respec system if you'd like.
http://cityofheroes.wikia.com/wiki/Respec

Their complexity of the game systems makes it near impossible to explain it without having pictures and a lengthy conversation.

[Jackolantern]

My approach to these things is to usually question the fundimental assumption involve.

So here: Why is it abuse? Abuse of what? Kittens?

I don't necessarily see it as abuse. Just perhaps something that some designs would not want. Some games are built around the ability to quickly change classes/specs. WoW is starting to embrace that a bit with their dual-spec system, and FFXI was built around being able to change classes.

However, if you are making a purely skill-based game (like Ultima for example) and your game is subscription-based, giving people full access to respeccing is potentially taking money out of your pocket. Having players restart a new character to try out another spec is extending subscription lengths. You may get an extra 5 months out of a player as they experiment with different builds, whereas they could try out every combo they wanted to try in an evening with an advanced character if they can perform total respecs anytime they want. In this type of situation, respeccing should typically only be given for fixing problem builds, not for players to bypass the skip large portions of gameplay.

But that is for commercial games that are concerned with player's subscription lengths. Non-commercial games really should not put too much concern into forcing player's playstyles provided it is not leaving the game exploitable and the natural player progression experience is not missing large portions of the available content.

[kaos78414]

Maybe abuse was the wrong word. I just don't want it to be too easy for people to respec all the time, like Jackolantern mentioned.

I think that not allowing respecs will push casual players away, so of course I want to have that feature in my game. However I don't want to have a dual spec system.

I suppose in the long run respecs don't really affect the game all that much. I'll probably adopt a modified version of WoW's system, since that seems to work okay.

Oh and @Last Known Hero: I totally got CoH confused with Champions Online haha