PBBGs - Browser discussion

[Jackolantern]

Since many people here are working on PBBGs (browser-based MMOs), I figured this would be an appropriate discussion for the Dev section.

At what percentage of total users can you stop worrying about an older browser? I was looking at W3C's browser statistics, which is a great tool, and was thinking about this. I am sure anyone who has done any kind of web design or development knows which one I am talking about (for those who haven't, I am talking about IE6, IE6, and IE6). IE6 is now down under 9% of market share, yet staying compatible with it causes huge headaches and bloated development work loads.

Of course your market comes into play. Gamers tend to be more updated with current technology, so I would likely have no issue with cutting IE6 out of the picture with a PBBG (and some of the complex AJAX basically demands it). But what about more general public sites as well, who more closely resemble the statistics of of W3C's data?

Anyone have any thoughts on this (both on game-related sites and others, if you have thoughts on both)?

[Falken]

Take it easy there. Don't be too happy yet. Remember you are refering to STATSTICS, which means read all details. I pointed out this to several people several times before. Quote from the link you posted:

W3Schools is a website for people with an interest for web technologies. These people are more interested in using alternative browsers than the average user. The average user tends to use Internet Explorer, since it comes preinstalled with Windows. Most do not seek out other browsers.

That reduces the number of IE6 users ALOT. Picking stats based on what Web devs are using is VERY BAD!

Here is a page showing stats from 5 different sources: http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm

IE6 got: 60%, 19%, 18%, 13%, 15%. So taking the average of that is way above 9%. But do not trust only this source.

When building a webpage, make it IE6 compatible as much as possible, without killing yourself over small details. Most features are actually easier to fix than you often think at the first glance. The webpages I built the last years are close to 100% IE6 compatible as well as all newer browsers. And in my opinion that wasn't too much of an effort if you have a good structure and coding routines.

[Jackolantern]

Ahhh, I didn't see that those were only stats from their own web page. That would basically make those stats useless then. Lame

[hallsofvallhalla]

its a gamble worth taking in my opinion. Out of all my alpha tests and beta tests between all my browser games I have had around 1,500 players. I rarely announced before hand to not use IE7 or better. Every player...100%... either were using non IE browsers already or made the switch/upgrade when they needed too.
Browsers are not like OS's. They are easy to update/change and you can have multiple ones at the same time. People using IE6 or older are just too lazy or just don't use the internet net enough to upgrade or change browsers. I hear the excuse about schools and work only having IE6 and that is just crap. IE6 has so many security flaws most have already upgraded or will allow you to upgrade.

Players who use old browsers and refuse to upgrade are NOT players you want anyways...plain and simple... Have you surfed the web on IE6 lately? Its bad! Like trying to game on Win 3.1

[Jackolantern]

For a game I would definitely see cutting IE6 out of the picture completely, with nice notices to the players to upgrade if they still use IE6 (and some browser detection to notify them that they are using IE6 if they are not aware). It is just too much work to keep it supported, and many cutting-edge AJAX games simply have no valid work-around. For a social network site, which would likely be much closer to a broad cross-section of web users, I could see working in at least some alternate formatting for it, but I would still not devote hundreds of hours to put it on the same level as IE7 and 8. All of the extra IE6 code could also end up bloating the page downloads to a noticeable level on mobile devices, thus harming everyone's experience.

[hallsofvallhalla]

heck I am even having issues with IE7. I am a big Microsoft fan but IE is a joke when it comes to development.

[Jackolantern]

heck I am even having issues with IE7. I am a big Microsoft fan but IE is a joke when it comes to development.

Soon...soon IE8 will rule them all..sooon...I mean, you know, IE users that is.

EDIT: And I will stick up for MS a bit here, though. Every web designer/developer loves to rail on IE because they are the one browser that doesn't ever seem to work right. The way the browser market looks, it appears that IE specifically scoffs at web standards and does it its own way, while every other browser developer comes to a clean, nice consensus about what to support. OK, maybe Microsoft has scoffed at the standard for a while, but the situation with the other browsers is not as clear as it looks. The other browsers are basically, at the heart, the same browser: Netscape. The Netscape core became Firefox, Opera is Firefox in different clothes, and Safari and Chrome are both WebKit, an open-source implementation of the Netscape browser. So there are only two real choices for a modern browser engine: IE or Netscape descendant. And since the latter works the same in 4 different browsers while the former only works in one, it makes it appear that Microsoft has been out to kick web developers in the jimmies for years. Well, maybe they kind of have been, but it is almost like they gave us all a cup first that no one seems to know they received. Microsoft just looks like the bad guy in the browser wars because of the way Netscape played out. Luckily for us, though, they have finally appeared to give in with IE8, and it seems as though they have modeled the new IE after the Netscape core.

[hallsofvallhalla]

Yeah but they could have streamlined years ago. It is not the difference that bothers me its the difficulty. If someone finds a way to make something better then suck up the pride and go with their way. Don't make things more difficult by refusing to follow the leader.

After all it was Netscape that was first not IE. Netscape was the first IE. NCSA Mosaic was the very first but the same developer(s) developed Netscape.

[Jackolantern]

After all it was Netscape that was first not IE. Netscape was the first IE. NCSA Mosaic was the very first but the same developer(s) developed Netscape.

Ahh, but IE3 was the first to support style sheets, and yet Netscape decided to do it differently lol However, my point was just that it was not really 1 vs. 4. It was really 1vs.1, with IE still having an edge over all the others combined in the IE5 and IE6 days. So in some ways I can understand them saying "No, it is really done our way". Not to mention that IE6 and before were still trying to recover from the horrible days of the major Netscape vs. IE browser wars, where both sides were doing horrible anti-standards things to try to attract developers to design for their browser exclusively (the old "This site is designed to be viewed in Netscape 4+/Internet Explorer 4+", etc. Uggh...).

I still hate using IE, though. But today, with IE8, it is mostly just due to the popping sound it makes and that it is a bit slower than Firefox and Safari for Windows, my two main browsers.

[hallsofvallhalla]

yeah well people use to ride horses to get places faster....Doesn't mean I am still going to use that slow transport today